Toya Werkheiser, MHR, Director of Marketing Operations, Cigna-HealthSpring

FULL TRANSCRIPT PART I

 

Cummings-Krueger: Welcome everyone to Menttium Matters podcast, where we talk about leadership, life, and the transformative power of mentoring. I’m Megan Cummings-Krueger, and today we’re going to share part one of our discussion, which focused on the power that comes when you combine strategic intentionality with a clarity of values, which is relevant in both mentoring and in life.

 

My guest today is Toya Werkheiser, who currently serves as a global marketing operations director at Cigna. Growing up in the healthcare industry, Toya has earned positions of increasing responsibilities and navigated pivots to drive business outcomes with roles in revenue cycle management, compliance, strategy and planning, and marketing operations.

 

Toya earned her BS in biology from Central State University and her master’s in human resources with a concentration in conflict management from Lipscomb University. Committed to lifelong learning, she also holds certificates in healthcare compliance, change management, and agile scrum master. Toya and her husband have four children, and they reside in Nashville, Tennessee. As you’ll hear during our conversation, she also maximized her learnings through the Menttium program, first as a mentee, and now as a mentor. Welcome Toya.

 

Werkheiser: Hello and thank you for having me. I appreciate it, Megan. I’m excited for today.

 

Cummings-Krueger: Absolutely, I am as well. I would like to start out by asking you about when you first joined the Menttium community as a mentee. I know that you created a strong partnership with your mentor, Artie, and really realized a great deal of growth. So, can you share how the program impacted you and why you believe that you were able to make the most of the opportunity?

 

Werkheiser: It’s a perfect starting question because it takes me to the start of my relationship with Artie and the intentionality of the match through the Menttium matching process, so that was surely a driver of the impact of the program. When I think about the matching program and where I was in my life at the time, the questions that Menttium drove to, that’s what got me to Artie. I would have to say what made the most of our experience and the impact it had was Artie’s lean in through his coaching and approach. We were intentional about the experience. I went in, we kept the air light, but the questions were deep, if that makes sense.

 

Artie’s great with this. I’ll talk about Artie and his style; he’s a coach’s coach. Yes, he was a gymnast in his life, but he’s a coach’s coach and it’s rarely a no, or you need to do this. It’s more guiding questions and inquiries and stories that help you to arrive at a solution that would be relevant and right for you. If I must think about it in short, it’s always intentionality and doing the planning. Coming into our mentoring meetings prepared, we had topics that we often shared in advance. You can’t learn if you’re not open enough and vulnerable enough to say this isn’t a place where I have strength or I don’t know what to do. You must be open and vulnerable and willing to talk through that and just ask the hard questions if that’s what’s going to get you there. It was a good experience for us, and I certainly can say I lean on Artie’s practices as I’m mentoring others. Great place to start.

 

Cummings-Krueger: It is absolutely a great place to start. We’ve heard that before in the Menttium community and it’s such a wonderful example of what comes. As you said with that intentionality, beginning with that intention to prioritize yourself in hard and distracting times to ensure you are making the most of an opportunity for your own development. I think you’re such a good voice for that.

 

I recall in your Menttium team interview, you spoke about your passion for building people and building teams, and you’ve said that over the course of your career, it hasn’t been about building operations, it’s been about building the people. Can you explain a little more about what you mean by that?

 

Werkheiser: Yes, of course. Where we are in the world today, people need to be validated. People need to know why they’re in the place they’re in. When you think about our role as leaders, whether it’s in title or in our daily function or otherwise, we are empowered and trusted to deliver outcomes for the business, and we get that done by building up people and building up teams. When you think about how we do that, there’s a consideration for what this team or this person needs to optimize their performance. You’re building into strengths and building people up to optimize success. That’s the way I think about it.

 

As I mentioned, there’s a need for us to understand how we can be useful. What is my purpose in this space? If you take a step back as a leader and you consider, look for where there are gaps, look where there are strengths on your team, and invest in and empower people and your team in a way that they know they’re contributing and they have purpose, that’s going to drive your results. The end product may be that you’ve built some function, whether it’s operations or sales or marketing, whatever it is. But ultimately to get there, there’s a build that must happen in the people and in the team.

 

One other thing I’ll add, and it comes up all the time. I was reading something this morning and that Maya Angelou quote came up again, “I’ve learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” You make your team feel like rock stars because you’re leaning into their strengths, they’re leaning into their strengths, and your outcomes will be better.

 

Cummings-Krueger: First off, after my 13 years of doing mentoring work, you called upon my absolute all-time favorite quote. That Maya Angelou quote captures the essence of mentoring, so I completely agree with it.

 

As I was listening to you, the thought occurred to me that it seems like for different reasons and different challenges that we’ve been dealing with, that the role of empathy is being recognized as not just a personal strength, but also a business strength. Understanding and caring for what the other person needs. I heard a lot of that in what you were talking about.

 

Werkheiser: Yes, it’s definitely there. I think about where we are in the world today. I mean, I’m in my living room, right? This is where business happens now. We are all in this world and driving results for Fortune 500 companies out of our homes, and for a period there, we also had our kids and we’re juggling that. If you can’t be empathetic to where your team is in today’s world, then you’re not going to be successful. People must feel like you’re invested in them for them to invest in you and invest in the company.

 

You turn on your newsfeed and what do you see, the Great Resignation. If you’re not empathetic and you’re not figuring out how to work with your people and relate to people, you’re not going to be successful in today’s world. We must be able to do that. We don’t have pets, but you’ll have kids running around and cats coming across the computer screen, and what do you do with that? You must figure out how to work through it.

 

Cummings-Krueger: Everyone really has been humanized. My favorite line is when people talk about cattails going by the screen. I think that’s the immediate humanization of our daily realities.

 

Happily, you returned to mentor with Menttium. You shared that your first mentee in partnership as a mentor was a powerful experience in the importance of considering how to lead through loss, adversity, and grief, and that this was true for you as you experienced challenges during the program year. I particularly appreciated your insight when you talked about the importance of going through grief and not around it. I wonder if you could share a little more about that.

 

Werkheiser: I can and what a time to launch into mentorship with Menttium. We could not have predicted the world as it would become. But I stepped into it, and I like to honor my obligations. We started in 2019 coming into what would be a rough 2020, and it’s an important question. Dealing with this is something that many people have had to do. It was tough for many people; this isn’t something that happened exclusively to me. It’s the decisions we make around how we move through these things. Often in a corporate environment, you show up every day and many things have happened, and you think you’re masking your hurt or you’re masking whatever this thing is that you’re carrying, but you can’t do, you can’t really mask it. It’s going to come out somewhere.

 

In 2020, there was the culmination of all these different things happening in the world and unpleasant things, and we saw them, right? There was the pandemic, we watched as it moved along, and it finally came to the U.S. and the challenges we had here. We had social unrest; there was George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor and many, many others. Then with the pandemic, personally for me, many people in my community were impacted, coupled with a direct loss in my family. In January and in July I lost my father and my brother. All these things happening at the same time were a lot to deal with, but I work for a healthcare company. I was internalizing all these things and trying to get up every day, put on my mask and come to work. Every day was a decision.

 

With the mentorship specifically, I had to think about that. I’m in this relationship and I’m in a role where I should be pouring into this person and helping them to grow through any specific challenges they have, help them to reflect and think about some next steps. We were having a great time, it was working. I just got to a point where there’s the day, there’s the call, I’m going through the motions, I get through that call. I must make a decision. This traumatic event just happened in the world. This traumatic event just happened in my life. What are we going to do with that? The way I approached it, again, I use the word vulnerable and transparent, I opened the call with this thing happened. It might have been when my brother passed, it might have been George Floyd, but what happened in the moment of sharing it was we were back to being humans first and relating to each other.

 

In a world where on the outside, you turn on the TV and you see this conflict between people because of their differences, we are in our homes and we’re on a call or on a WebEx, and we’re having deep and personal moments of connectivity. When I take a step back and I think about it, what does that translate to? These are the opportunities for two very different people to see each other differently, but differently in a good way and to relate in a different way. Therefore, it’s opening a door to the opportunity to change a person’s disposition or preconceived belief system about other people. This is a mentorship intended to drive results in a business, help a person grow through their roles. All the research shows that when you have a diverse and inclusive environment, your business and your business outcomes are improved significantly.

 

If we’re opening the door and helping people to start thinking about people as people and seeing differences as an added value and changing, shifting some of those preconceived belief systems, ultimately, we are helping to grow our business. Not only that, but our children are also witnessing that it’s a better future state for all of us. I think I arrived at the business outcome here, but really the connectivity there, it’s total wellbeing and that’s what our goal should be. Sometimes we get a little out of balance but that is what our goals should be and we’re all better for it. It was a rough mentoring period to face, but on the other side of it, I think we came out okay. Thank you for asking that. That’s a tough question.

 

Cummings-Krueger: Thank you so much for sharing that. Those of us in the mentoring world know that Marcel Proust quote, if we’re going to throw quotes around, that relates to the greatest journey is seen through another’s eyes. To have gone through that unique, painful, and challenging period, and then being intentional about being vulnerable and open about it. It strikes me as a unique journey, but it also strikes me that it is yet more mentoring in a way. That was more learning for your mentee as well as you, but also that was a powerful journey.

 

Werkheiser: It certainly was, and I’ll tell you that with Artie and I, he demonstrated that. Just reflecting on that with your comments, that is certainly one we should keep in the toolkit.

 

Cummings-Krueger: Right here is a great place to pause. Please join us next time for part two of our conversation with Toya Werkheiser.

 

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT PART II

 

Cummings-Krueger: Welcome everyone to Menttium Matters podcast, where we talk about leadership, life, and the transformative power of mentoring. I’m Megan Cummings-Krueger, and today we’re going to share part two of our discussion with Toya Werkheiser, in which she shared a number of stories that demonstrated the result that can be achieved when we normalize conversations instead of avoiding them, such as initiating courageous conversations around the topic of race.

 

I want to follow up a little more specifically on one of the challenges that you talked about. You bring to this conversation your life experience as a Black woman who has succeeded in a corporate world, as well as being a leader of very diverse teams, great diversity of thought across race, gender, generation, et cetera.

 

Following the murder of George Floyd, as you navigated yourself and your team through this challenging time and all the racial conversations, which needed space to occur, I know from our discussions that part of that benefited from your ability to have courageous conversations to say the things that people often don’t want to say. It pulls to your authenticity and willingness to be vulnerable, and I think that’s something that many people listening to this would appreciate hearing. What stories or what tips can you share for many of us who are challenged in engaging in those courageous conversations?

 

Werkheiser: Yes, you’re correct. I am a Black woman, I’m an African American woman. I’ve been that every day of my life, so I know what that experience is. When I think about courageous conversations and being willing to have those in corporate America, that’s generous of you to say I’ve been successful. I am on a journey to be the best Toya I can be every day; I can say that. A part of that, I must credit following what I call a natural instinct for when it is appropriate to drive conversation around a topic and the right way to do that. Specific to race, there are places where I had to be intentional. Off the top of my head, I can think of about five distinct interactions that required the stepping away, this gets to approach, and some strategy for navigating, stepping away from that situation rather than responding in the moment.

 

You want to apply the seek first to understand, and these tenants: you step away and you think about it, you play it out, and you say, all right, let’s give some consideration to what this could have been or what this could be. Is it just ignorance in the way that you just absolutely had no idea? In general, my approach has been this; there is an offense, take the step back, give consideration, develop a handful of talking points, schedule an interaction with said person one-on-one, it doesn’t have to play out in front of people.

 

When I have gone into those settings, I generally don’t have, this was when we were in the workplace and in the building, it’s not my laptop, it’s not a notebook, it’s not a phone. It’s nothing because I want it to be understood that this is a personal interaction at this point. For me, when I’ve done this, it has just been, listen, there’s a thing that happened and I want to be sure that we are in a good place. Here’s how I perceived it, but it could be that you meant something totally different. I just want us to talk about it. At the end of the day, we can be in a better place, or we can agree to be cordial, but I want us to have an opportunity to optimize our relationship here in the workplace.

 

I’ve had great outcomes with that. In terms of approach, that’s what’s worked for me. People have different styles. People can say different things and get away with it. I’ve been able to say some things in corporate America, with my teams and with others. It’s your personal brand and how you show up is how people interpret it, so that must be a consideration. But that’s how I’ve approached some things very specifically during this pandemic.

 

Megan, I know this may feel like it runs long, but I feel it’s a good story. I had this experience where we were on a call, several people from the company I work for, several people from another outside business supplier. It sounds bad, but it’s why we’re having this conversation because you must start normalizing conversation and stripping away what’s taboo. That’s how we’re going to grow. Someone makes the comment or the statement, “yeah, we can’t let people off the plantation”. I was the only African American on the call. I had my camera on, so I had to gather myself quickly. We got through the call, and with the protocol that I have established over time, I step away. I notify my direct manager that I want to make you aware of this so that if it comes back around to you, you’ll know exactly what happened.

 

I set up a quick 15-minute meeting with this outside company person, and we just talked through it. The way I set it up is, my mother, other women in the world who’ve been victims of domestic violence. If I say my hair is naturally curly, I must beat my curls into submission to straighten it, that might be offensive to a person who’s a victim of domestic violence. I’ve probably said that before, and it meant nothing. But in our world, we are really growing and evolving to be a bit more sensitive to a few things. The intention is to raise awareness. It’s an example, specifically where I applied said protocol and with good results. She apologized and she said, I will never say that again. It’s something that has been incorporated into people’s vocabularies for years and years, and we are in a different place in the world. And she said, I’ll never say it again. So, there’s an example, that’s a heavy one.

 

Cummings-Krueger: Thank you so much for sharing that. I was thinking it’s so effective. First off, I love your own protocol. I feel like at times when it can get emotional, that provides a little structure for how you want to handle the situation, but that you do have that conversation, which has always been uncomfortable and needs to not be uncomfortable and needs to be held again and again.

 

The other piece that came to my mind was, there’s so much ignorance at many levels. I recently was watching a home show and they talked about where master bedroom came from. I had never thought of master bedroom being “the master”. Just never occurred to me. So, there’s just so many levels of awareness that we all need to learn and care about in that respect.

 

I just love that story because it’s a great example where she didn’t intend it that way. She’s going to correct and then also there’s a little more trust. I imagine you have those uncomfortable conversations, but then there’s more comfort afterwards. Mostly, not always.

 

Werkheiser: I can tell you that there’s only one instance, and I’ve had many of these conversations, there’s only one instance where I felt like we could have had better outcomes, but we all must arrive at that point on our own. I can’t force the other person into this space of, you know what? I should consider it differently. We must arrive there in our own time, and they’ll have the right breakthrough moment. I hope, maybe not. Then they’ll come over. But we’re not striving for, this is not a utopia. We don’t want to be perfect. We just need to be able to have some civil interaction. We don’t have to agree on everything. We just need to be civil. That’s it.

 

Cummings-Krueger: But a lot of it also can come from having intentional conversations that just haven’t been happening.

 

Werkheiser: I think this is another good one. It was one where I was very emotional after Mr. George Floyd’s death. We as African Americans, other persons of color I’m sure have similar experience, something happens in the world; it affects your community. You get up, you put on your mask, I mentioned the mask earlier. You put on your mask, and you go to work, and you try to go through the motions. This day, I had one of those interactions with someone. It wasn’t anything racial. It wasn’t anything pointed. It was just a not kind, not professional, inappropriate interaction and it was on a day when I was barely holding my mask on. My mask had tears coming through it because every time I thought about this gentleman who did not go home, I was emotional.

 

On that day, I thought about how many people were experiencing the same thing I was experiencing in that moment. It was early in the morning, it was just at the start of my day, and I made the decision that at least in the space that I operate in with my peers who know me, and they know that I normalize conversation around things I’m passionate about, we need to address it differently. I made the decision, I sit in a marketing department, so I was intentional about this. I sent an email to my peers and to my boss, who at the time was senior vice president of brand and the title was “non-Christmas Card” because it was a picture of my family, biracial couple, blended family. We’re a rainbow, a perfect beautiful rainbow.

 

I sent it, and what I said to them in that email was that I’m sending this, and I want you to look at this. This is my family; these are the people I love. Every day, when Rob and I see these things on the news, we think about our children, and we’re terrified at the thought of what potentially might befall them unjustly for no reason at all. I needed them to understand, and the spirit of what I communicated is I’m not okay right now. I had a rough call earlier. We have a long day ahead of us. I’m not okay; many people like me are not okay. I’m struggling and what I need from you is just to acknowledge that and I’ll get better. We’ll all get better, but we’ll get better faster if we can get through this together. This is the senior leadership team that I was on, reporting to our manager, our senior VP, and there are seven of us. I’m the only African American, and I sent the note and immediately I got phone calls and responses.

 

But also, what it did was open the dialogue across our marketing organization because they then said, can I send this to my team? I want them to be considerate of this and that people are struggling so that when they have their interactions, they think about this going into them. It was a powerful moment and I cried forever of course, and I had to keep putting my mask back on, but it was an impactful moment because here was an opportunity. I could have just said, I’m taking the rest of the day off. But instead, I said we are a healthcare company. We need to be okay with the total wellbeing of the people who work here and considerate of that. I chose to put it out there and it’s not popular. I think it’s becoming more popular to be that vulnerable, but it’s not popular. It opened a lot of conversations. I wanted to share that story because here’s the opportunity to drive broader impact, to drive the conversation further, and give it some legs and tentacles.

 

Cummings-Krueger: I’m so appreciative that you shared that. It absolutely opened the door to conversation, and I guess this is going be my quote podcast, but I kept thinking about Brené Brown’s quote, that “vulnerability is the birthplace of creativity”. I think part of that is it is an act of courage to be vulnerable, and I think that’s why it’s so appreciated when it happens, but it’s not always the norm. I think there’s, again, greater appreciation for that ability.

 

All the research shows when you’re vulnerable, there are many assets as a leader, as well as a company, again, it’s that win-win between the personal and the professional. But I think it’s powerful to think in terms of the fact that sometimes when you’re vulnerable, you are also speaking for others. It’s like buying a Hallmark card. You don’t have the words, but it’s printed right there, so if you can pass it on, someone’s made that message. I love how you opened the door to that conversation, and I’m sure it did continue to get passed on.

 

Werkheiser: It did. I appreciate you letting me share that one too. I know I’m making us run long here, but I really appreciate it. I think it’s impactful. And by the way, you have all the best quotes, so keep sharing them.

 

Cummings-Krueger: Thank you. Well, I already warned you before we started this podcast that I wanted to go as long as you had time because there’s so much that you can speak to. You are wonderful in your courageous conversations; you are authentic and willing to be vulnerable. Right now, that is such a gift for so many to be validated, as you said earlier that everyone is going through this.

 

The next question I have for you, and I have no doubt this is going to resonate with the audience, because so many of us are going through these kinds of situations. Speaking of intentionality, you chose during your career at one point to make a lateral move because you wanted to broaden your perspective. Would you share with us what that thought process was and what that experience was like? Again, I think many are experiencing this as we talk about the Great Resignation and figuring out where your unique ability is and how to best provide that, I think that’s a value.

 

Werkheiser: That’s a good one too. When you think about who we are, we should always be growing, reflecting, and adjusting course. Who you were when you were 21 and 35 are very different. Therefore, your needs are very different. If we get in the habit of prioritizing our needs, these kinds of things will become more natural for us.

 

For me specifically, when I think about the time in my life when I was at this inflection point or pivot, the consideration was, what is it that I’m looking for? Not necessarily in the role or function or the department I’m going to sit in, but what is it that I’m looking for? You start thinking about that. You prioritize what’s important to you. I encourage you to sit down and think about what that career path could be. Because it could be many different things. Once upon a time, we all thought of it as linear and the rungs on the ladder, but now it can be many things.

 

At the time, I sat in a role that was in a healthcare vertical in the company that I work for. This is a huge company, highly matrixed organization. You literally could work there your entire life and never do the same or similar job necessarily. So, I thought about what the different paths could be for me that would still be fulfilling. Ultimately, I started a round of networking. You know, filling it out, having some exploratory informational interviews to see what’s happening at different places in the company.

 

While I was doing that, someone reached out to whom I had networked with previously and offered up an opportunity. I was like, this feels like something I’ve done. It’s a lot of the same category of work. But what’s different? What are the boxes it checks for me? It extended my network naturally. It got me out of the vertical, and now I have this opportunity to think across the enterprise. The world we’re in today, you should be an enterprise thinker. It also allowed me to tighten my focus around some capabilities. There were some things I had done for a while, but I wanted to get away from them a little bit and I really wanted to focus in on this thing. It allowed that for me.

 

I would like to say I knew at the time this role would do exactly this thing it did, but I can’t say I knew that Megan. What I will say is that I’m in a position now where it didn’t close off the prior path. That door was still open, but what it did do was create new pathways and not just one. The seat I’m in today, which is now a couple of steps ahead from that role, I have multiple new pathways. So, when considering a lateral move, you must weigh these things out. The impetus for making a move is different for all of us based on prioritizing our needs at that time.

 

When you start thinking about why you’re working, how your everyday is, the salary associated with your role, and in today’s world where you are working; do I have to go into an office or can I sit in my living room or in my kitchen or on the patio for that matter. Sit that alongside the phase of your life you’re in. I would say consider the lateral move that could open so many other opportunities for you. Things you probably have never even considered. It worked for me and it’s also why I think we’re starting to see it.

 

It started the Great Resignation and now we keep hearing about the reshuffle. I think we’re reshuffling because people are realizing that I’m looking at the world I’m in today and I think that I would be happier if I was doing this thing. They’re moving around and some of that could be lateral, and it opens a lot of opportunities. That’s the way I see it.

 

Cummings-Krueger: Absolutely. When you’re finding a better fit with your own unique abilities and interests, that also enhances the engagement. In the end, it can be a win-win, but there’s a lot of cumulative stress right now for everyone.

 

The final question I have for you also speaks to your intentionality and I need to tell the audience, you are the mother of four children, and I remember a couple years ago when I was talking to you, you had a plan for the empty nest. Now, it didn’t factor in a global pandemic. It must be said, you did not plan for that. But I do want to take advantage of the fact of how intentional you are. Being a mother of four, I’m sure there’s a story or a learning you could share with everyone. Certainly, you haven’t had the youngsters that people had during the pandemic, but what would you like to share with the parents today?

 

Werkheiser: We’re all in such different places. I think what is most important, and I’m saying this to myself as I share, we must give ourselves some grace. As parents, we’re doing the best we can at that given moment in time with whatever’s happening and no one could have forecasted, predicted all these things that would pile up. When we look back, the fact that we came through it and we’re mostly okay, that’s probably a win. But we must give ourselves the grace while we’re in this space to just say, today I did the best I can. I did all that I could. I started at 6:00 a.m., it ended at 7:00 p.m. I ordered pizza instead of cooking. It’s okay. They ate today, everyone had food today. We must give ourselves some grace.

 

There are tons of strategies that you can Google and meal order and prep plans and all of that, and all those things are great. But ultimately, to be okay with ourselves, we must give ourselves some grace to get through it and I think that’s okay. Our kids see our faces, our kids realize the world we’re in, they’re very smart children and they pick up on so much. It’ll be okay, but we just must extend ourselves some grace.

 

Cummings-Krueger: Absolutely. When my girls were young, I do remember somebody telling me with self-talk, you can really do a number on yourself, and they said, you’re not a bad mom. You might have had a bad mom day, we’ll give you that, but you’re not a bad mom. It’s amazing what a difference, giving yourself grace, a way to reframe it.

 

I want to end on the question I usually end on with all my interviewees, and that is as you can tell, I love quotes and I’d love to hear, what is the most meaningful quote for you?

 

Werkheiser: For me, Megan, it’s a Bible verse. It’s my life verse. It’s Philippians 1:6, “being confident of this very thing. That he who has begun a good work in you shall complete it until the day of Jesus Christ”. It gives me chills and it’s been my life verse for a very long time, but on those days when I had a bad mom day, I can be confident of this very thing. If there’s good work and all I must do is prepare and show up. I’m not going to get it perfect, none of us are. But I can have the hope that these things will all work out. It’s on our little scratch board in the kitchen. Look, I’m at work and I’m saying the scratch board in the kitchen! But it’s there. It’s an important one for me and it carries me when those bad mom days show up or whatever that challenge is. It gets me through. I appreciate your asking. Thank you.

 

Cummings-Krueger: Toya, so appreciate, cannot thank you enough for not just your wisdom and insight, but truly your vulnerability. It is always a gift to others when you are open and transparent. I think you built a lot of people up today through this podcast and I just can’t thank you enough for demonstrating what comes from that intentionality that you have a great deal of, but also in combination with clarity of what your values are. Thank you so much for joining us today.

 

Werkheiser: Thank you for having me to close out.

 

Cummings-Krueger: I want to thank everyone for listening to this Menttium Matters podcast. We have a number of excellent guests like Toya lined up in the coming weeks, so please be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss any episodes. For additional resources, you can find show notes on the Menttium website. We look forward to having you join us next time.